Full Tilt

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smitty

Member
FYI

Here’s an eyebrow-raiser on a Wednesday morning: The feds have revised their lawsuit against an online gaming site called Full Tilt Poker.

Not only was it violating the gambling laws, prosecutors say, it was “a global Ponzi scheme.”

Here’s how they say it worked: Members had deposited $390 million, but the site had only $60 million on hand. Turns out the proprietors had pocketed $444 million for themselves over the previous four years.

Leave aside the pot-kettle issue of the U.S. government labeling anything a Ponzi scheme. Ponder this: $60 million in assets, compared with $390 million owed to depositors? That’s only 6:1 leverage!

Before 2008, the major investment banks were leveraged nearly 40:1. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, nearly 80:1.

Now we know what Full Tilt Poker really did wrong: It failed to obtain a Federal Reserve charter.

Here’s another eyebrow-raiser: A unit of the insurer Lloyd’s of London, which sued the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for indirectly aiding and abetting the Sept. 11 attacks, has suddenly dropped the suit.

The suit was filed in U.S. federal court less than two weeks ago. Lloyd’s sought $215 million it had paid out to victims of the attacks, claiming al-Qaida was backed by banks and charities acting as “agents and alter egos” of the Saudi Arabian government.
 
I've also seen a quoted number of over $100 million in money that the justice department seized from FullTilt through payment processors. While it is certainly still likely that Full Tilt was engaged in a Ponzi scheme, it is troubling that the Justice department can take your money and then fault you for not having enough money on hand!

Meanwhile it seems all quiet on the Ultimate Bet / Absolute Poker side of things, where US players are apparently just out of luck for ever recovering any money from those sites.

This industry needs regulation, and badly. I just hope the crooks involved so far haven't completely eliminated any possibility of the industry being cleaned up.
 
Don't jump over the moon. Or run off with the spoon.

Smitty presents multiple concepts, not necessarily related.

Ken and Lefty point to a concern of any on-line player, whether poker or "full casino."

The FBI and forces of the US gov complicate the on-line issue.

Interestingly, the $60 million "on hand" equates to slightly more than the rake per centage on ring games(about5%) and the vig on poker tournaments(10%) on the total quoted deposited money.

Although Raymer stated Isle of Man for Poker Stars required all monies to be on hand other sites' regulations ,while ostensibly a "government" oversite, amount to no more than the sites' own rules subject only to the response of it's customers.

But a poker room or in this case an on-line poker site is different than a casino and a "HOLD" was probably never a regulation or a necessity. Poker is a money in/money out activity amongst players. There were never any slow pay complaints about Full Tilt during its years of existence(limited personal experience). Not many players were maintaining !00,000 accounts or more to allow that large a disparity.The only possible glitch would be in the bonus system, issuance and redemption. No complaints of those sorts amounted to much discussion on the poker discussion sites.

Raymer and Duke and a number of others have long lobbied for the US to go ahead and regulate on-line sites, taking their "vig" and let the games flo. That may or may not happen. But rather than the "evangelical" fervor to shut down the sites, its my opinion that it's one more tactic in the WAR AGAINST TERROR. On all sites for the longest time and many of the larger ones up until the shut down, players identified only by their screen names could transfer money to other players. Or in some cases dump large sums to another player abetting the untrackable, untraceable transfer of large sums of money. Large money transfers just happens to be one of the hot button indicators for the terrorist hunters.

The main point is the canard of the disparity in deposits and money on hand. Right now we really don't know how much was on hand and in what type of accounts. And we don't know the time frame of "deposits," which would vary by hour relative to withdrawls.



The FBI and US gov actions of asset seizure are what create the proposition of fraud

As Raymer stated a better decision can be made when all the facts, if ever, are known.
 
Hey Smitty

Did some, not extensive, research at 2 plus 2 poker. Formerly Full Tilt sponsored Pro Tom Dwann, (Durrr) took the heat with an extensive on line chat and continued Q & A. Funny that's the only site I know of that has even been talking about this.

While there are a multitude of issues about the structure and management of Full Tilt and its endorsements and board participants, the telling point, to me, in regards the discrepancy in player funds is this: After UIGEA Full Tilt (and UB to my personal knowledge) continued to accept deposits from US players. They continued to credit those deposits to player accounts.
The PROBLEM was, the processors weren't processing the transactions. Even when Full Tilt realized this, they continued business as usual. As I said, there are multiple other questions regarding sweet deals, management and board members But in large measure to the one issue of "short fall" it's in processing. But then the question there remains: WHERE IS THE MONEY? Ken spoke of it in the statement of the GOV seizing $100,000,000.

It's certainly not a Ponzi scheme. But it is a cluster F***. And not a Tea Partier, or necessarily anti government, The FBI and Justice Department are as culpable in the short fall as Full Tilt.

Caveat: Players were certainly forewarned when the UIGEA enforcement was announced and enacted. Smart people immediately began the withdrawl process. I know I did. But then I was lured back into UB, with the announcement of a BJ opportunity. And Ub somehow was still accepting deposits, as was Full Tilt.

Funny in a way that throughout gaming history all the big Poker folks seemed to deem BJ players as connivers or cheaters. Two of the biggest Poker sites come off as cheaters. Contrast to a Global Player(casino site) with heavy emphasis on BJ and BJ tournament play that decided to just fold up when all the action came down.

To the mismanaged Poker Sites. When is 1 mil not enough? When is 2 mil not enough? 3? 4?

But then again it's gaming. Anyone venturing into the arena, better know as much as they can. And those that know more, fare far far much better.
 
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