Venetian Friday Night Sit & Go's

Monkey your bet of 18K is a good bet, please don't get me wrong.I have history with a situation where I didn't cover 4 bets and I got burnt by it.So if 25 K still allows me to cover 4 bets and still play my BS split in a proper way I will give up getting the third bet on the table to cover a 4 bet problem by BR 2.Thats why by a small margin I prefer the 25 K over the 18K.


Joep
 
The Late Venetian Report

Sorry I'm late with my Friday night Venetian sit & go report. Which I had intended to do on Saturday afternoon. But with Joey Bagels in town and me making the 25,000 Guarantee Final Table on Bet 21.com my day was full. I wound up in 3rd place winning over 3,600 beating 96 of the 99 players. Phil Hellmuth won the event which paid over 8,000 to the winner. Phil had a 100,000 blackjack on the final hand to win it.The 2nd place finisher didn't fully split his bankroll and was dealt 10-10 which he split but fell short of beating Phil blackjack by less than 2,000.A full bankroll split would have been enough to pass Phil's max bet BJ. A costly mistake.

But on to the Venetian report

There were some new faces playing Friday night as Michael Shackelford "The Wizard Of Odds" was there along with Henry Tamburin.

Some regular faces were there as always as Norm Sheridan, Adriana Jade,Hollywood Dave were on the prowl looking for the "Donkeys" to show up.

The Venetian has added a new promotion to these events and it is a good one. Any player winning 2 tournaments on Friday night will also receive 2 tickets to the "Blue Man Group". Tickets have a face value of close to $90 each,so a nice added EV to these tournaments awaits all who venture over to the Venetian on Friday nights between 8 PM and 2 AM

I had a profitable night winning one and finishing in 2nd on the other.

With company in town my tournament night was a short one but next Friday I'm shooting for 2 tickets to the Blue Man Group.


Joep
 
Interesting Evening

Tonight turned out to be an interesting evening at the Venetian,very few tournaments players were there. Bradley Peterson,John Chai,Jimmy D other than that the rest of the field was comprised of walk up Venetian players who proved to me that elimination blackjack is a very skillful format if playing against newbies.

I personally cashed in 4 of the 5 tournaments I played in. Winning 2 and placing 2 in the other 2 . I also won 2 tickets to the "Blue Man Group" for winning 2 tournaments tonight.That was a recent addition that the Venetian has added to the prize pool any player winning 2 one table sit & go also wins 2 tickets to the show and added value of close to $200.

The debate has carried on for a while as to if elimination style tournaments are more skill than luck as opposed to a "Old Time" tournament. Tonight I believed showed that playing against non tournament players in this format is a big advantage because they have more crucial hands to make mistakes in. In the "Old Time" format they needed to only get lucky on one key hand.

My cashing in 80 % of the tournaments I played in tonight is way more that I should have. Bradley Peterson cashed in 2 of the 2 he played and was playing the last one when I left.

Now if May 13th Venetian UBT Circuit Event attracts the same kind of non tournament players as tonight did, as up to 100 players are expected to be invited by the Venetian. This could be a huge overlay for the lack of skill in an elimination format seems to really favor the seasoned player.

My 4 out of 5 cashes prove to be a $580 winner plus $200 in tickets, $ 780 for the night not bad I payed for my Venetian entry fee for next week and I get to see a show. I'm on a FREE-ROLL ;)

Joep
 
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Joep said:
... as opposed to a "Old Time" tournament. ...
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That's "traditional", not "Old time". A new format does not obsolete the formats that are played in 99.99% of the tournaments nation wide. "Old Time" implies something that is obsolete or rarely if ever used and that is certainly not the case.
 
tra·di·tion·al
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/trəˈdɪʃ
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nl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[truh-dish-uh-nl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1.of or pertaining to tradition. 2.handed down by tradition. 3.in accordance with tradition. 4.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the older styles

Actually referring to it as "Old Time" does fit according to this as it was my intention to address is as a style and not out of date.

But you 99.9% is a little out of wack as there are other tournamsnts besides the UBT Tour that use different versions of multi eliminations before all hands are played.

WSOB Knockout Card which many consider a multi elimination format.
and two different Canadian Casinos are now using this "New Style" format

Still not a majority but far from only .001%

Joep
 
I guess using the definition of one word to justify the meaning of another is acceptable at times. However, it's usually best to get a direct definition rather than going "back door".

Webster's unabridged dictionary defines "OLD TIME" as:
of, like, or characteristic of past times
(that's the whole definition, nothing was omitted)​

Therefore, using the term "old time" is not appropriate when referencing non-UBT format BJ Tournaments because non-UBT format events are going on all over the country and do not represent "past times" but rather current times. I'm willing to concede that "traditional" may also be inappropriate. Now we have a situation where "old time" is out and "traditional" is out. So how about this:

MAIN STREAM BLACKJACK TOURNAMENTS = NON UBT FORMAT BLACKJACK TOURNAMENTS​

The phrase "main stream" is not in my dictionary so I can't give an exact definition but I think most everyone understands the term.

Now, after some consideration, I think there will be some who object to the term "MAIN STREAM" (someone is always objecting to something) and I find the term "OLD TIME" as being derogatory - offensive if you will - so how about this:

NON UBT FORMAT BLACKJACK TOURNAMENTS​

That should cover it.
 
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OK, we have our little squabble out of the way. Thats good because I'm leaving for a tournament :D which means I'll be shutting down the computer so I can't continue this discussion anyway.

The important thing is that all members on this site are interested in more good tournaments. The format is not the important thing, the existence of BJ tournaments in any format with good rules and is fair to the players is what I, and hopefully all players, want.

GOOD LUCK Joep in your next SIT & GO. I see you did well yesterday - just do a repeat. ;)
 
More Tournaments

I agree, Toolman, that what we all want is more tournaments, regardless of format. I have, and will continue to, play all that I can get to. I do not believe that the UBT tournament format favors skill vs luck. The requirement to stack your chips in stacks of ten makes chip counting a lark. The secret bet increases the luck factor to 4 hands instead of just one, unless of course you are psychic. True, amatuers can be easy pickings regardless of format, but I played 3 rounds at Barona and a lucky bj on an all in secret bet can put the table away, no matter how skilled you are.
 
toolman1 said:
The
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toolman1 said:
important thing is that all members on this site are interested in more good tournaments. The format is not the important thing, the existence of BJ tournaments in any format with good rules and is fair to the players is what I, and hopefully all players, want.

GOOD LUCK Joep in your next SIT & GO. I see you did well yesterday - just do a repeat. ;)
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That is my opinion also more tournaments with good rules and fair to all players including the amount of fees that are withheld. Players need to really look at that when deciding where to play,as some tournaments take out so much that even a skilled player can not overcome the JUICE/VIG in the long run.

I believe 10% is where the line should be drawn if one can expect to overcome the fees collected. Anything more than that is just to big of a hurdle to overcome.


Joep



​
 
stacks of 10

leilahay said:
I do not believe that the UBT tournament format favors skill vs luck. The requirement to stack your chips in stacks of ten makes chip counting a lark. The secret bet increases the luck factor to 4 hands instead of just one, unless of course you are psychic. True, amatuers can be easy pickings regardless of format, but I played 3 rounds at Barona and a lucky bj on an all in secret bet can put the table away, no matter how skilled you are.
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True, the "stacks of 10" rule takes away a significant part of one skill which gives an experienced player an advantage. But I still maintain that some things have to exist in TBJ/EBJ to help level the playing field between the experienced players and the novices, or those novices will either stay away or only participate a very few times before they realize that they're overmatched and quit. In tournament competition for any sport, you've got to have many donkeys subsidizing the few thoroughbreds.

By the way, the Palms UBT final tables had the chip stack limit at 20, instead of 10. In addition, the Palms chips have no markings on the sides, further toughening the task of chip counting. I had a copy of the rules in my pocket, stating the "stacks of 10" rule, but bit my lip and kept quiet. :confused:
 
Disservice?

If a select few players are so good with skill is there a point the casino is inviting dumb newbies to a certain ruin? The way it sounds Venetian management needs to post warnings signs for the Friday SnGs:laugh:
 
Cute!!!!

Now there's a site I can have some fun with!!!!! :laugh:

Seriously, all of us on this forum (I hope) know that there's a lot of luck involved in TBJ, and all the skill in the world won't help you through a run of really crappy cards. Ask Joep about his Palms final table with Deb!! :eek:

It just seems to me that TBJ needs a big ol' influx of newbies. Doesn't make sense to me to put them any deeper into the "dead money" category than they already are, because we don't want any more of them than necessary getting discouraged and quitting completely. Gotta have them donkeys!
 
myself, averaging 13-15 live bj tourneys a week, (the old fashion type, with no secert bet, knock out hand, chip stacking format, or whatever else will be thrown at us in the near future, to make the game "more exciting", i would agree that ebj has a greater degree of luck factor. yes, i play it on line, or at ubt tourneys, so i do not want to come off as sour grapes in this statement. ebj is just the way it is, and if i want to supplement my live bjt playing, then i will have to play this format online. is it my favorite?, no, but i will support any fairly run style of bjt that is presented to myself. it is my job to become a more proficient player at whatever style i come up against.

yet, i strongly diasgree that ebj is a greater skilled game than the "old stlye" format of tbj. even looking back to the recent, "old days" of global-player casino, i believe will put my statement in a more reasonal format. there were great battles, with less cowboys making "unreasonable" bets and getting lucky.

no, i do not fly around in a corporate jet (kudos to those that have advanced their play that allows them this lifestyle). i just play, against some of the best players around every day of the week, that can chip count, out bet, and out play a lot of the big named players that i have come up against. does that make myself or them better than the big name players? no, for you are only as good as the day you win. someone will be better, or in ebj style, luckier than you the next day
 
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When you have 3 different elimination hands before you have to play the last 5 hands,that in itself takes away some of the luck factor as it allows seasoned tournament players, pros if you will, the opportunity to outplay other players as opposed to allowing these players to only have to win one lucky hand to become the leader. How some players fail to see this is a real head scratcher to me.

Now as far a chip counting goes yes the stacks have to be in stacks of 10 chips during early rounds and stacks of 20 on all Final Tables. Lets not forget any stack that is less than 20 still has to be counted to have a exact chip count. Counting stacks less than 10 or 20 and then adding them to the other stacks and still make your optimum bet with 30 seconds is and will always be a skill that few have mastered while others are trying to.


Joep
​
 
Joep said:
When you have 3 different elimination hands before you have to play the last 5 hands,that in itself takes away some of the luck factor as it allows seasoned tournament players, pros if you will, the opportunity to outplay other players as opposed to allowing these players to only have to win one lucky hand to become the leader. How some players fail to see this is a real head scratcher to me.

Now as far a chip counting goes yes the stacks have to be in stacks of 10 chips during early rounds and stacks of 20 on all Final Tables. Lets not forget any stack that is less than 20 still has to be counted to have a exact chip count. Counting stacks less than 10 or 20 and then adding them to the other stacks and still make your optimum bet with 30 seconds is and will always be a skill that few have mastered while others are trying to.
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Very well said. Having the chip stack max rule will only help level the playing field a little bit, one still must be able to count & add the smaller stacks and do the mental gymnastics required to determine exact counts in a limited timeframe. The experienced player will still enjoy a strategic advantage over the novices, particularly in UBT/EBJ style tournaments because of the multiple elimination hands. Lady Luck still plays a big role, as she does in almost any game involving a deck of 52 playing cards, and all the skill in the world can't help you if she's determined to give you the shaft - or to help your opponents in amazing ways. A perfect example is the first Palms UBT final table last month - right, Joep?

By the way, when did UBT change the final table max stack to 20? And why?
 
LeftNut said:
All the skill in the world can't help you if she's determined to give you the shaft - or to help your opponents in amazing ways. A perfect example is the first Palms UBT final table last month - right, Joep?
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LeftNut said:
Leftnut without giving away to much information of an upcoming TV show,sometimes unorthodox plays will eventually come back to bite you on the ass. I'm sure you would agree to that. Thats all I will say about a Palms Final table for now.​




By the way, when did UBT change the final table max stack to 20? And why?​
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During the first UBT Tour Stop in Aruba the players suggested to the powers that be, to make this a game that was not intimidating to new players, by reducing the chip stacks to a minimum so that newbies would not be so far behind in trying to compete against pros.​


The original suggestion was stacks of 20,but some players were using this as a ploy saying to another player "You stack is over 20" making the player break his stack down and the the player was able to get an exact count.That was stopped!!​


So they went to stacks of 10 in all rounds except the final table.This is something that all tournaments should do if they really are looking to make it a player friendly tournament.​


Chip counting skills is a strong tool in tournaments and it will be the difference in a lot of crucial situations.The only way to protect the newbie is to somewhat reduce the work load of chip counting,the 10/20 stacks is somewhat of a help but as I have stated before the smaller stacks still need to be counted and added to the rest.​



Joep​
 
Chip Counting

Having played in exactly two UBT format "sit and go" tables (at the Venetian), and being the first one to be eliminated both times, makes me an expert on the whole subject.

It occurs to me that the real skill in BJ tournaments should not be chip counting, but rather the proper bet when the chip count is known. For example, I have relatively poor eye sight, and find it impossible to count the chips if I am first base and the chips i'm counting are at 3rd base.

A far better solution would be to allow tournament players to use paper and pen to keep a running chip count.

What do you think, Joey?
 
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